On The Invisibility of Fanzine Fic and The Loneliness of the FanFic Reccer

[morgandawn]

A Fanlore volunteer is adding comments from crack van (the fanfic rec community that recently shut down). Her focus is on fanfic that was originally published in fanzines. She shared some of her observations with me....

"I'm filling in zined story comments on Fanlore with comments from Crack Van.

First, the recs themselves are good, but there is almost nothing of value in the comments to them. Lack of substantial online comments, the pithy "that's hot" or "thanks for reccing it" seem to be something that went along with the online journal culture, even early on. I don't generally read comments at AO3, but I wonder if they (overall) have more meat to them?

Second, it's no wonder many, many fans don't know what zines were or what role they played in early fanfic, as the reccers very rarely listed the zine the stories were originally published in. Starksy and Hutch reccers were better than most, but more often that not (talking about older fandoms here), the zines are not even mentioned. It's like the stories popped out of nowhere.

Third, regarding zines: when the story was posted online by the author, there is often no mentioned that it was in a zine first, or it it is mentioned, they don't name the zine by title. No wonder zines are such a mystery to many.

Finally, reccing at Crack Van was a thankless task, no matter the fandom, no matter the year. It was lucky a rec got even a single comment, and when it did it was an aforementioned pithy thing, or a complaint that the link to the story was broken. Demoralizing. I'm amazed that people stuck with reccing there all those years...."

Comments

[nestra]

First, the recs themselves are good, but there is almost nothing of value in the comments to them. Lack of substantial online comments, the pithy "that's hot" or "thanks for reccing it" seem to be something that went along with the online journal culture, even early on.

Well, there's an unpacked value judgment.

[morgandawn]

(slow clap). I see what you did there.

[montanaharper]

I find it really odd that someone would expect to get something for making a rec. I don't ever expect to get "thanked" for making recommendations; I make them because I love something and want other people to see it. That's my reward: sharing the stuff I like with others who might like it.

[morgandawn]

I think volunteers participated in crack van reccing for many different reasons. Some (like the crack van volunteer above) were disappointed at the lack of discussion. Others may have been fine with no discussions being generated. I am certain the latter position could be seen as equally as odd to some fans. I know that many mailing lists fans felt the same about fandom's move to LJ (personal blogs = loss of a neutral forum for substantive discussions). Which is why the blog vs tumblr debate fascinates me ..the themes raised have a long history :-)

Of course all this is secondary to the other observation that fanzine fic was/is invisible in recs. Kinda meta, eh?

[montanaharper]

Of course all this is secondary to the other observation that fanzine fic was/is invisible in recs. Kinda meta, eh?

I wonder if that's a function of expecting the rec'd stories to be available in the same medium as the recs? If you're rec'ing stories online, you link to them, and if they're not available online you merely mention the name of the story, because things from a different medium are secondary? If that makes sense. It's less about the fanzines themselves than about the medium you're currently interacting via?

Of course, I started out as an online fan in the mid 1990s and only ended up reading zines incidentally, when I fell into fandoms (Pros, in particular) that still existed primarily in zines, so my perspective is going to be different than that of someone who started out in zine-based fandom.

[morgandawn]

I think that the zine stories that were being recced at crack van were online - and what makes/made it odd is that when some stories were posted online, the authors themselves did not mention they had once appeared in zines. So if what you say is true - that the medium controls, then you would not mention the zines in the rec - just link to the online story. But I am not certain why the authors would not mention the zines when they first uploaded them. I wonder if there was an impression that zine fic was "old" fic so better not mention it? (pure speculation)

Of course many authors did mention their zine origins and the Pros Circuit Archive went to great effort to mention the zines. But stories posted to the Pros circuit archive were done through a moderator who controlled what info was included. When I went looking for zine fic on A03 we found that many authors were not mentioning the zine origins.

In the end though, I think the lack of zine mentions does play a role as to why zines and zine fic is (and remains) invisible.

[montanaharper]

In the end though, I think the lack of zine mentions does play a role as to why zines and zine fic is (and remains) invisible.

Oh, I totally agree with that. I was just theorizing on why the lack of zine mentions happened.

[raine]

Agreed. I did crack_van recs because I felt I should contribute to fandom as a whole and if I got a thank you on the comm for them, I was thrilled. If I didn't, no biggie; I shared the fic I wanted to share with a wider audience.

[morgandawn]

To be fair, the OP seemed to be saying she wanted discussion - which can be different from looking for/expecting thank yous. But I am certain many crack van reviewers would have appreciated either. I also wonder if the reccers in the early years had different expectations from those in the later years? If time and greater familiarity with blogging culture changed those expectations?

One of the more interesting discussions I just read this week came from another fan reviewer who posted reviews in her review journal back in...2005? 2006? She was hoping for debate and discussion. Which did happen, but some of it took place on a closed and private mailing list when links to her recs were posted to the list. When mailing lists members were asked why they didn't discuss at the review journal as they had been invited to do, one of the more common responses was: "journals are not neutral spaces. I don't feel comfortable sharing a different opinion (or even a similar opinion) in someone's "private" space."

In the end, I mourn the long comments that fans used to make in LoCs. I miss substance and conversation. It's probably the complaint of every single fan who's seen different mediums and generations pass them by. (nod and wink to Usenet - then mailing lists - then twitter - then tumblr).

[raine]

The notion that my rec on crack_van would spawn discussion feels odd and foreign to me, largely because the more public comms could generate completely random comments that to a degree, made my posts on it more cautious. I'd label something more completely on crack_van than I did for my own fic at times, just because of the comm's culture.

I shudder to think what the next gen-evolution of fandom will be. "Here's the selfie I took of me watching this show! Aren't my OTP cute?"

[starwatcher]

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The notion that my rec on crack_van would spawn discussion feels odd and foreign to me,

That's my reaction, too. If anything, I would expect a discussion to happen at the site of the fic -- readers posting an LOC with, "Read this because of Crack_Van, and I was really interested in the way you..." and (maybe) other readers chiming in. Discussion at Crack_Van just feels baffling -- and, if the author doesn't know about the rec to visit and see what people say -- of no use or satisfaction to the author.
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[morgandawn]

I think the other reccer I mentioned above had similar expectations - she expressed confusion when the discussions about her recommended stories were taking place on a locked mailing list where neither she nor the author could see or participate. When you add the fact that many people don't feel comfortable discussing a story in an author's journal you will see the overall decline in both quantity and quality of discussion opportunities.

what I find interesting is the blogging focus in this thread- many older stories are posted in archives and websites where discussion is not possible or manageable . We are assuming that crack van recommendations led to a journal where discussions could happen. Basically, our blogging mindset as to when and what we can discuss would be as alien to someone coming from a LOC background. Or a mailing list background. And now a Twitter and tumblr background. We literally do not 'compute'. We have different expectations and we end up writing posts that start with ...."this position makes no sense. Why would anyone expect....?"

[starwatcher]

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what I find interesting is the blogging focus in this thread- many older stories are posted in archives and websites where discussion is not possible or manageable

Ooh, excellent point -- and one I hadn't even noticed. But maybe the question helps determine the viewpoint. She wondered why there is no discussion, and we're accustomed to the idea that discussion can't happen in an archive or website, so we automatically start considering the question as it pertains to places it can occur.

In the end, I mourn the long comments that fans used to make in LoCs. I miss substance and conversation.

I agree; although I seldom participated, my mental outlook was expanded by reading different viewpoints. But that, too, happened in blogs or mailing lists, so we get right back to talking about "discussions" only as they pertain to those platforms.

blogging mindset as to when and what we can discuss would be as alien to someone coming from a LOC background. Or a mailing list background.

I'm a bit confused -- "coming from a LOC background" suggests private email between author and reader, but "long comments in LOCs" suggests comments in LJ (or similar). I saw a fair bit of discussion in mailing lists, though more about the show and characters than individual stories; I think I found fandom as the heyday of story discussion (like in Prospect-L) was winding down.

And I suppose that's the basis of the changes -- fans who think "this" is the way things are done disperse to various new fandoms, and they're not numerous enough to hold the standard of doing things "this" way against the greater numbers of new fans who don't have that experience or expectations.
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[morgandawn]

LOCs were often published in letterzines so they formed part of the public back and forth. an LOC could also be a private letter mailed to the author or publisher - however many of those LOCs would be printed in the next issue of the zine for other readers to see and comment. A lot of this paper discussion took place before I entered fandom - it is only through the Fanlore and the Sandy Hereld memorial project that I've been able to access to and read some of these older zines. I entered fandom in the Usenet (and then mailing list) days of the early 1990s.

[morgandawn]

ps, any thoughts as to why zine origins were skipped over and not mentioned? I don't want to 'ignore' the other main focus of the post.

[starwatcher]

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I wonder if people who don't have a zine background (like me) regard zines as somewhat "exclusive" or "elite". If you're already paying for an internet connection anyway, fanfic online is "free". Zines could be ignored if you'd have to scrape up extra money to buy them and then, when you're talking about specific stories, it's easy to forget that they were once in a zine.

But I don't know why an author or reccer wouldn't mention it when talking about a story. I have seen headers that said, "Originally published in XX Zine" -- but if it doesn't say that, I wouldn't know the history. Or maybe because the numbers of fans who read zines are small compared to the total numbers of fans -- and growing smaller as new fans discover fandom -- and it seems like it "doesn't matter"?

Or maybe it's a case of "out of sight, out of mind". I suspect there isn't a definitive answer.
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