morgandawn: (BSG Roslin wikidwitch)
morgandawn ([personal profile] morgandawn) wrote2014-12-16 01:05 pm

Fandom Does Not Use Technology. Technology Uses Fandom

Fandom usually jumps into technologies, uses them, and then acts surprised when we realize that we have no clue what we're doing or how the use of the new tech has changed an aspect of our fandom culture. Right now a few authors are posting notices that you need permission to link to their fanworks in "public spaces". Or that they'd prefer their readers comment on their fic where it was  originally posted.  Each author gets to unilaterally define what is public with the expectation that every reader will follow because that is part of the "social contract". So for today Goodreads = public and is not a place to list or review fanfic. Tumblr is OK (for now) because it is not seen as a "public" space.*  

It used to be easier to know what to expect of other fans but the moment we went online, the fannish social contract was voided due to sheer size and complexity of online interactions. Add the fact that new platforms and new ways of interacting keep coming out every 20 minutes and you have a hot conceptual mess filled with poorly understood expectations.

I know that when we went online in the 1990s few of us had any idea  that fans would be publicly posting their porn fanfic** to open access websites (no. stop. think of the children!), displaying their explicit art where anyone could see (blush), and tweeting their love of RPS and knotting fic (OMGWTFBB!).  By those standards, we have all breached the original fannish social contract of keeping fandom a "safe space" simply by interacting with one another in public and online. And I suspect that 20 years down the road, we will again struggle to recognize "fandom" as it continues to be reshaped by technology.

So I would rather see us practice mindfulness and awareness that the tools and platforms we use change us and our culture instead of snapping at one another because we've changed and that we no longer know what to expect from one another.

Because to be honest, I have no clue any more. And I'd be wary of anyone who claims otherwise.

*Keep in mind that most fans don't bother to turn off Google indexing on their tumblr blogs (or their LJ...or their DW..or their twitter or their.....). And even if they do, every time someone else reblogs your content, if *their blog* is searchable by Google it will still be "public".

**A few of us did have in inkling but we all kept it quiet because we did not want to scare our fellow fans with our crazy visions of the future filled with flying fans sporting jetpack keyboards and tinhats.

edited to add: here is another example of Fandom Meets Technology
elf: Computer chip with location dot (You Are Here)

[personal profile] elf 2014-12-17 02:24 am (UTC)(link)
Goodreads isn't uploading the data. I don't think Goodreads even uploads books from Amazon--they just connect to it if there's also an Amazon listing.

Miscellaneous people with accounts on Goodreads are uploading AO3 (and occasionally other places) metadata. And this is not so much to Amazon's advantage (they gain nothing from fanfic being listed, and occasionally will have drama over it), but it also costs them nothing, whereas curating book listings would take a lot of time and effort.

Basically, they're not going to sort out the difference between a story published at AO3 and one published at Smashwords, or one published at NewStoriesEveryDay.com, or whatever other fic-hosting site shows up. Listings take up very little server space, and the cost of curating would be much, much higher than the cost of "just allow everything, and remove individual pages when we receive a creditable complaint."
stormcloude: peace (Default)

[personal profile] stormcloude 2014-12-17 02:37 am (UTC)(link)
It's not just miscellaneous people though. You have to be a "librarian," which is a specialized type account that has to follow certain guidelines, in order to upload and curate books and entries. Ultimately Goodreads profits from these librarians doing their dirty work and building content for them. And it wouldn't be that hard to forbid entries from fanfic archives. They're pretty distinct sites with pretty specific subject matter.
stormcloude: peace (Default)

[personal profile] stormcloude 2014-12-17 03:18 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, but you added your own work. I think that only librarians can add a random person's work. I know that before they were bought by Amazon, they had to remove all the Kindle versions of ebooks because of some TOS kerfluffle and it was a real pain in the ass to have them re-add titles when the kindle version was the only version in their database. It could only be done by librarians.
stormcloude: peace (Default)

[personal profile] stormcloude 2014-12-17 03:35 am (UTC)(link)
No need to test. I'll take your word for it. But that's changed since they were bought out then, because I couldn't add titles when they purged the Kindle ebooks without becoming a librarian-- and that involved jumping through hoops and justifying why I should be allowed to be a librarian. Hoops I didn't want to jump through at the time.

Also you need to be a librarian to clean up a Listopia list. Even the creators can't do it, although anyone can add books to them. I went through that hassle just a couple months ago.
elf: Quote: She is too fond of books, and it has turned her brain (Fond of Books)

[personal profile] elf 2014-12-17 03:52 am (UTC)(link)
I checked--just added a book: The Book of Peace by Richard Shannon. (Hippie book full of trippy artwork and even trippier text.)

Cleaning up and such requires librarian status; adding books to the database doesn't. That's almost certainly part of the problem.

(no subject)

[personal profile] stormcloude - 2014-12-17 04:06 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] elf - 2014-12-17 04:11 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] stormcloude - 2014-12-17 05:45 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] stormcloude - 2014-12-17 04:04 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

[personal profile] stormcloude - 2014-12-17 06:44 (UTC) - Expand
elf: Computer chip with location dot (You Are Here)

[personal profile] elf 2014-12-17 03:19 am (UTC)(link)
What it takes to be a librarian is basically expressing an interest in doing so. There are some hoops, but they're pretty simple. I remember setting up an account and adding books without any special TOC or agreements going on. I have no idea if that made me a "librarian" or if individual users' book lists are somehow different.

I'm not sure they could easily forbid entries from "fanfic archives." Does that include Wattpadd, which is used for fanfic and original fic? (AO3 allows original work.) Does it include private author webpages, where an author might post chapters or a whole work as a free sample?

Deciding what a "fanfic archive" is, is likely more work than the Amazonian managers of GR want to bother with. Unless they're likely to get sued over something, I suspect they're going to go with "a book is whatever the librarians decide to list as a book."

Fanfic archives are easy for fanfic readers/writers to identify, and to separate from "general fic archives that may allow some fanfic." But for non-fanfic readers, I'm not sure it's anywhere near as obvious. E.g. while Smashwords has a "no fanfic" rule, it's buried in their TOS (and relates to copyright; new Sherlock Holmes works should be fine)--and the whole Jekkara Press line is genderflipped versions of public domain works.

There's another issue, in that GR doesn't require links--you can review books that have no presence on Amazon or anywhere else online. And GR's limited staff is certainly not going to go poring through every "favorite book from childhood" to try to find out if the book is a "real book" or a fanfic thing.

I agree with you on several points--GR profits from other people's work, and their standards are lax to allow that. And that sucks.

I just don't agree that it'd be easy enough for them to prevent fanworks--first, they'd have to *care* that some of the "books" listed are fanfic or otherwise "not real books," and then someone would have to convince them it was a problem, and then they'd have to deal with the complexity of defining fanfic or "fanfic archive;" I'm pretty sure that GR is going to invest approximately zero hours on this.
elf: Computer chip with location dot (You Are Here)

Re: examples of how goodread fans are not "real" fans

[personal profile] elf 2014-12-17 03:00 am (UTC)(link)
Yep yep; yet another charming case of "people who like platforms I don't, aren't real fans."

Fannish clubs at colleges aren't real fandom; only conventions are.
Zine fandom isn't real fandom; only fan clubs are.
Digital zines aren't real fandom; they have to be on paper.
ff.net isn't real fandom; anyone can post there--you need to be in a zine.
tumblr isn't real fandom; it's just kids pointing and squeeing.

On the one hand, yes, it's bizarre to have Harry/Draco fic being reviewed and judged by people who don't know thing one about fanfic. On the other, it's not like fandom doesn't have its share of sporking reviewers who ignore whatever context the author intended and discuss the raw contents of the fic.
luminosity: (MISC-Aliens)

Re: examples of how goodread fans are not "real" fans

[personal profile] luminosity 2014-12-17 03:44 am (UTC)(link)
I kinda like the idea of all of those readers suddenly *discovering* fanfic via GR. Falling headfirst into the crazy end of the pool because they found a Teen Wolf slash story, replete with mpreg and lactation.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
amalthia: (Default)

Re: examples of how goodread fans are not "real" fans

[personal profile] amalthia 2014-12-17 04:32 am (UTC)(link)
I like this too. I only found fandom by sheer chance myself. I think I would have been an avid Goodreads user if I wasn't in fandom.
klia: (!)

Re: examples of how goodread fans are not "real" fans

[personal profile] klia 2014-12-17 05:50 pm (UTC)(link)
OTOH, that scenario reminds me of when Caitlin Moran had Cumberbatch and Freeman read slashfic at the Sherlock premiere, and it makes me wonder if those "discovered" fanfic stories will end up with a shit ton of pointing-and-laughing "reviews?"
klia: (!)

Re: examples of how goodread fans are not "real" fans

[personal profile] klia 2014-12-17 08:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I wasn't even talking about writing quality, but what used to be the typical reaction of non-fans to fannish expression -- the horrified/disdainful pointing and laughing at the "freak show."

And having those "reviews" in print on a public website isn't quite the same as a one-off RL thing, unless those public turkey reads are being recorded and posted on YouTube (they may be; I hadn't heard about them until now).
elf: Computer chip with location dot (You Are Here)

Specific and protected community

[personal profile] elf 2014-12-17 04:22 am (UTC)(link)
http://scarhead.net/ (formerly glassesreflect.net) has fanworks designed to be shared in a protected community. You need an account with a password to read the fics there at all. Arguably, Walking the Plank is meant for a specific community--it's hard to find through Google, and the front page is full of "this site contains explicit Snape/Harry fanfic; if that's not to your taste, go elsewhere" warnings.

AO3 is *not* a site for fanworks made for a specific and protected community. Neither is fanfiction.net.

"And respect a culture you are not a member of."

Because, of course, if you were a member of fandom, you would not want listings of your favorite fics on the site where you put rec lists of your favorite reading materials.

... didn't we see this whole argument played out in paper zines when the internet was new, and some people were posting fics on usenet? Can we make a drinking game of it?
cathexys: dark sphinx (default icon) (Default)

Re: Specific and protected community

[personal profile] cathexys 2014-12-17 04:53 am (UTC)(link)
That. All of that!!!

I LIKE protected spaces and locked communities. I was a huge proponent of having a locked only option on AO3 and am very glad it's there (and used by many) for sports RPF, for example.

But you can't have it both ways....

insert image: http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/091106/defeats-the-purpose.gif
cathexys: dark sphinx (default icon) (Default)

Re: examples of how goodread fans are not "real" fans

[personal profile] cathexys 2014-12-17 04:49 am (UTC)(link)

"[My fan stories] are not meant for casual public consumption, they are fanworks meant to be shared in a specific and protected community."
But then they SHOULD share it in a specific and protected community. Open AO3 and f#$%^& Tumblr are certainly NOT THAT. I'm sure we all remember the debates over the access limitations of flocked communities. The bad side was that limitation. The good side was that the subjects in question didn't fall over their fanfic when they vanity googled.

I think what annoys me here the most is that the most vocal opponents are on a platform that is the broadest and most searchable we've ever had. And they themselves constantly copy rather than link material. And to then go and scream foul when the publicly accessible, googleable stuff gets linked? This isn't the debate we had way back when in re to metafandom, where we were worried that a blog with 5 users suddenly got linked and overrun. This is an already widely accessible and linked text that suddenly pops up in the "wrong" context.

Personally, I don't like breaking the fourth wall and having fanfic in everyone's face. I minimize my digital footprint and accept the lack of publicity for certain things as a result. But you can't really have it both ways...

(And I still can't believe what side I'm on here :)
cathexys: dark sphinx (default icon) (Default)

[personal profile] cathexys 2014-12-17 04:54 am (UTC)(link)
That's really sad!

Thanks for the link...
cathexys: dark sphinx (default icon) (Default)

[personal profile] cathexys 2014-12-17 05:27 am (UTC)(link)
That's the thing that makes fanlore and everything connected to it so important to me (and yes, academic discussions as well, I suppose)--because history does repeat itself--and maybe not as Marx proclaimed, the first time as tragedy and the second time as farce...

I am kind of frustrated by fans freaking out and going after other fans like this. And yes, I'm sure I've done my share of similar things in the past, but...doesn't mean we weren't wrong, just like I think they are wrong now...