Need Help Brainstorming VHS-Digital Transfer Problems

[morgandawn]

 I am working with a third party to convert VHS tapes onto DVD. At home, I only use the copyguard removal tool when the video won't  transfer  (note: most of the tapes are not protected, just really crappy quality). The reason is that when the tool is turned on, it caused horizontal "tearing" or wavy lines (think really bad Twilight Zone effect) on all clips.  So I use it only sparingly when I have no other choice

The third party is using a Time Based Corrector which also serves as  copyguard remover (if needed). We're getting the same problem - even if a tape has no copyguard on it, if the tool is turned on, it causes wavy lines. There is no way for him to capture without it (his setup is fixed).  

I'd love another set of eyes on the results to decide whether to proceed. And of course any suggestions.


  

edited: based on feedback, I tried adding a different TBC/clarifier (Panasonic DMR-ES10), inserting it before the Canopus capture card. This stabilized the image but introduced  a red/purple color shift across the clips. Again, this is not copy-protected tape - just really bad source.

What this tells me is this

1.An automated approach may not be feasible - we either live with jagged lines through all the vids or red/purple color shift through all the vids. Or we stick with the labor intensive method - run the video until it stops, mark the location, proceed and then return to decrypt the "bad vid" at the end.

2. I need to try different TBC/copy guard removers before confirming #1. There are two more - one is the Sima (on loan) and the other is the ATV-8710 that I will have to buy.  This second one does not have as good track record removing the wavy lines as the Panasonic DMR-ES10. One online reviews say that it handles wavy lines very much like the TBC that the third party uses (DataVideo)

3. If #1 turns out to be correct, I may not be able to use a third party because all they can do is push a record button and cannot make adjustments.



Links: all copyguard removal tools degrade the picture. So using them for all source may be counter-productive.

Digital copyguard removal tool recs

stand alone DVD recorders may be better for bad quality video

but if you need to get an external TBC the ATV-8710 might work

Comments

[lindadee]

What program(s) and equipment are you using to make the transfers, and are these homemade tapes or professional (store bought)?

[morgandawn]

These are song videos. They are oftentimes fifth or sixth generation and this means that the audio and video signals drop out constantly which is sometimes mistaken for copy guard.

At home, I use a Sony VCR which connects to a Panasonic DVD recorder E55. When I need to engage the copy guard removal I use my Canopus ADVC 100 in between them.

the third-party is a bit more vague. All I could find out from him is that he was using a DataVideo time base corrector. Which runs from his Sony VCRs into his computer set up.

[lindadee]

Rather than going from a VCR to a DVD recorder, try going from VCR to Computer. I bought a program (from Roxio, I think) that came with an RCA (stereo sound and video) to USB cord. I bought mine years ago, and haven't used it in ages. Once you've got the file saved digitally, you can burn it to a DVD or just keep it digital. I don't know what the quality will be since videotapes have horrible quality to begin with, and copies of copies are much worse.

[morgandawn]

Turns out there's not much difference going to the DVD recorder then to the computer. I actually started off with a high-end Macintosh with Final Cut Pro but found the process so much slower. and in the end, we still had
to deal with the same problems with the horizontal wavy lines. It is one of the reasons I ended up having to remaster the video Data's Dream because it was impossible to remove those where the lines on the macro vision protected portions of the video. what I'm trying to figure out right now, is why the weedy horizontal lines are showing up even on the non-Macrovision portions of the video using the third parties video set up. With my amateur digitization set up I'm having no problems on 90% of the videotapes.

[lindadee]

I think trying to remove the Macrovision is putting additional code into the videotape that it can't handle. But if you're not having a problem making the transfers, why bother trying to remove the Macrovision. And does the problem persist if you do a direct to computer transfer as opposed to DVD?

Have you tried using different VCRs? Could the problem be in the videoheads?

Sorry I can't be of more help.

[morgandawn]

The Macrovision kicks in randomly. So rather than having someone stare at the screen for 2 hrs monitoring we wanted to find an automatic method.

The only way to automate is to have the Macrovision breaking tool running full time so that if and when it encounters Macrovision, it keeps recording.

However, the video quality for the 90% without the Macrovision also takes a hit if we leave the Macrovision tool running full-time . And yes the problem happens whether we do direct to computer vs DVD. Direct to computer BTW requires that you go through a capture card - in this case the same one I use for breaking the Macrovision for direct to DVD transfer. In the third parties case, he is using another capture card plus a time base corrector/clarifier and is getting the same problem when he does the automated capture.

I have access to 4 VCRs. The third party has access to dozens. The issue seems to be in the transfer process not playback. The online research keeps saying that these "tears/wavy lines" should be fixed by running the video from the VCR through a time base corrector and into the capture card so we're stumped.

[zz9pzza]

This is a really stupid comment. Can you clarify "The issue seems to be in the transfer process not playback."

Can you view the video on a screen well ?

Could you fix the timings by recording the screen in some way.... or some equivalent.

( And yes I know..., this is mostly rubber ducking ).

[morgandawn]

When I play the video AND watch it on a TV there is no problem. Thus "no problem with playback".

When I record the video onto my DVD Recorder without any TBC OR Macrovision decrypter it plays and views fine.

However, on all DVD recorders and computer capture devices, if there is a hint of Macrovision or even a weak signal, it will refuse to copy.

That is when you use a TBC along with a Macrovision breaking eternal device to clean up the signal so it can be recorded. The side effect is that while it will allow the video to be copied it can produce bad wavy lines.

What I had been doing to avoid this is to run the videotape without any external devices into the DVD Recorder until the DVD Recorder refused to copy. Mark that one vid. Restart with the next vid and finish. Then rewind the tape to the "protected" vid, insert it into a VCR that was connected to my ADVC 100 (capture card, Macrovision decrypter) with the Macrovision decrypter turned on, make a copy of the vid with horrible horizontal wavy lines and call it quits. That way we have a good transfer for 90% of the tape and at least one viewable copy of the 'protected' vid. If I am unlucky there will be 3-4 vids on a tape that won't transfer with much stopping and starting. This requires that someone monitor the tape during transfer and it is why I am still sitting on 200 songtapes 4 years later. I need an automated transfer process that will work around the Macrovision parts of vids and does not require anyone to monitor. And that does not push wavy lines across the entire tape.

[klia]

My first thought was that it might have something to do with your Sony VCR. I've been boycotting all things Sony since the '80s, when I found out they hardwired all sorts of anti-piracy garbage right into their units. Maybe try another brand and see if that makes a difference? It's too bad later VCR models removed the little manual tracking knob, which solved most of these types of issues.

Also, check your ADVC 100 to make sure the tiny little switch (IIRC, on the bottom) is in the right position -- I think it's NTSC-PAL? -- because it can be accidentally moved really easily, as we found out.

Back in the day, I used a little passthru device called a Sima CopyMaster for analog-analog transfers. I have no idea if it still works, but you're welcome to try it if you want.

My other thought is to bail on trying to record to DVD and use your ADVC100 to capture directly to Premiere, or whatever editing software you have. You might have better luck.

[morgandawn]

The short version: Yes, thank you. Having the Sima may help me troubleshoot further.

The long version: I don't have a Sony VCR. JVC, Sharp and Mitsubishi. This cuts across all VCRs.

Thanks for the tip on the ADVC 100 switch- I checked and it is still in the right place. The third party vendor is using one of 4 models of DataVideo TBC and a different capture card into Premiere and is seeing the same thing.

Would love to try the Sima -I had one but it died and it may help (see long TBC-->capture card explanation below).

When we don't use any capture card or TBC "clarifier" and run the tape straight into my Panasonic DVD Recorder we do not get these problems . It is only when we use them that we see the problem across the entire tape even sections without copyguard.

What I had been doing to avoid this is to run the videotape without any external devices into the DVD Recorder until the DVD Recorder refused to copy. Mark that one vid. Restart with the next vid and finish. Then rewind the tape to the "protected" vid, insert it into a VCR that was connected to my ADVC 100 with the Macrovision decrypter turned on, make a copy of the vid with horrible horizontal wavy lines and call it quits. That way we have a good transfer for 90% of the tape and at least one viewable copy of the protected vid. If I am unlucky there will be 3-4 vids on a tape that won't transfer with much stopping and starting. This requires that someone monitor the tape during transfer and it is why I am still sitting on 200 songtapes 4 years later. I need an automated transfer process that will work around the Macrovision parts of vids and does not require anyone to monitor. And that does ot push wavy lines across the entire tape.

From what I am reading when you use a capture device it will hard code the wavy lines (they are called "tearing"). The only way to fix them is with a TBC inserted *before* the capture device which is why this is making no sense to the both me and the vendor. He is using DataVideo TBC (high end) and keeps telling me that it is because my tapes are old. Yet I have the same tape that I personally transferred straight into the DVD recorder with no TBC and no capture card with no problems. Maybe my DVD Recorder's built in TBC is that good.

[klia]

The buster devices are supposed to bust Macrovision. WTF? I'm now wondering if the affected vids were originally made on Sony machines? I know they were really popular with vidders at the time. It would kind of make sense that they forever borked the vids for future copying.

Have you tried making a VHS-buster device-VHS copy? See if that comes out clean, then digitizing from there?

The only other method I can think of is the old transfer method, which was to play the vid on the best, sharpest monitor you have and re-record with a camcorder (with blackout draping around, to keep out reflections, etc.). It's really tedious, and definitely not automated, but it may be the only way of getting clean copies.

You're welcome to borrow the Sima. I can't drive that far, but maybe K and I can bring it down?

ETA: I left a message for my ex, the video pro, to see if he has any ideas. Will let you know when I hear back.

[morgandawn]

I'll ask Kathy to come down with your Sima. I updated the post with more data today, which your ex can read if he likes.

[morgandawn]

I'll send you a link with some video samples.

[lindadee]

I think that video is as good as you're gonna get (#1). Every time you go down a generation on a videotape, the picture gets muddier as quality is lost, and you can see the quality change between scenes. That said, the "noise" at the bottom isn't too bad. I think the Macrovision is trying to "correct" something it can't.

[morgandawn]

Video number 1 is my amateur conversion. Video number 2 is the one that the third-party did. I replicated some of his errors on video number three.

Because of the volume of videos I am transferring, I physically cannot digitize them so I I am working with a f
third-party who is willing to touch "TV copyrighted" material. This local third-party is very knowledgeable, but seems to be struggling to replicate my amateur video setup which produced the decent version number 1. If he could produce something similar to my video number 1, I'd be happy. But right now he's getting too many horizontal wavy lines and turning the image into video salad. If I can produce a better result at home with my amateur/cheap setup, I'm confused as to why he cannot. Which is why I've been asking for input from others might know more.

[lindadee]

I used to have a "video enhancer" - a box with four knobs on it. But I never really saw any difference. The funny thing is I finally ditched it this summer (after years of it just sitting in my closet).